Access Discusses the end of the Palm OS

[dafsmom]

Im shocked. Our biggest 2 Gurus are in conflict. Is this forum in shambles? I hope not. I hope that everything happen because we all still care for Palm. Hope.

Just thought to weigh in with some points. PTL and Mooseman, have you ever wondered why Sony did not make it? According to Jeff at 1src*, I dont know if you buy into it, its because they innovate too much. They do not built to suit a particular need. Rather they built just for the sake of being in the fore. Palm is a different company. Palm provides solutions to what we need, and I certainly do not mind Palm being behind, that is, technology that does not border on bleeding edge that can hurt the company. Of course we used to lament whenever Palm comes out with a PDA, that is lacks this or that, or that or this. But do we really have a use for such state-of-the-art tech?

Now that Palm has incoporated some really nifty and pragmatic features like the non volatile memory and wifi, it should be cheered upon by us, the ppl who even cares about the OS, ppl who knows what goes into our Palms. Because that can only mean one thing, Palm is trying to, and I believe it can reach out to more ppl. Just take for example, the Z22. I believe it will sell just for one reason: NVFS. My less geeky sister and mother often laments that Palms are not practical for the general consumer because they require a charge to maintain memory. Now no more.

Jeff also mentioned that Palm was becoming a VAR (value added reseller) meaning tHey do not and cannot solely rely on one product, in this case Palm OS. As a VAR, it would mean the more variety the better. That's what I loft about the new Palm. No longer as Palm as before. But the question that I want to ask is: why do we all choose a PALM over a ppc or a linux-based PDA? I would think that its because of the Palm experience, and if Palm can replicate the experience in Linux, so be it. (But NO WM. I hate monopolys. I hate domination just because they think they have a superior OS when they dont!)

That said, I support PTL's move to wanna do some bit in saving what we all know as Palm. I've fallen so affectionally in love with them since day one. I really hope I can do something for the cause, if there ever was one.

*http://www.1src.com/scripts/show/127..._Ferraris.html

[0.o-Pip_Squeak-o.0]

Check out www.palmsource.com and click on linux community. The way it reads cobalt os will be layered with linux. They do not say much more. No time frame. Of course we have been seeing the cobalt is arount the corner for a time now. I guess the hard thing for me is when the new combo products come out developers will make programs for us to use. After paying for the os version of the product(s) that I like, I will have to pay again for the same basic program for the windows base platform because you can not just transfer the programs. If you are a new(never had a pda) buyer it is fine. What about the rest of us. I do not like the idea of buying a bunch of programs again that I really like. May be that is a thought to developers. Give us the same programs for the new product at a small upgrade fee. This alone will hold some of us back from buying. I guess we will just have to wait till we can play with one to see if it really is worth it. You won't get the old 320x320 or 320x480 with the windows product. Just my thoughts. Russ.

[xsnipedxbabyx]

T3Gunner:

I don't think PTL and I are in that much conflict.....this is an emotional issue and as such it's good to talk through it.

Your comments about Sony being too innovative and the VAR are probably dead on. And now that Palm no longer is in control of the OS, they do need to partner with other companies to insure survival. Palmsource is no longer in control of the OS either now that Access has purchased it.

The real heart of the problem goes back to when the two companies seperated.

But from a hardware side (VAR) Palm can't rely upon the OS past 2009 since that's the length of the contract. And if Access chooses to piggy back it onto a Linux based setup then the hardware is going to have to change.

A software developer (I'll pick PTL's favorite, TealPoint) will have almost no say in what direction Access takes if there is no hardware to support it.

Palm will dictate what direction they take on the hardware side (VAR). And business will drive a big chunk of that direction.

Palm devices were originally marketed to individuals - The Treo 600 and 650 (the biggest sellers) are more business oriented. And who controls business software? Your only allowed one guess.

Now enter in Access - they need to capture some of that business market and the 2nd player in that field is Linux. The hardware will have to change in order to capture that segement.

Any effort to save the true Palm world will have to be directed at the hardware side. And by definition now - Palm is a VAR and they'll go with whatever platform affords them the best market share.

As G.P. points out - it may be that the OS will get tweaked to run on top of a Linux based device - but since Sharp just released a Smartphone (linux based) that would be my guess who the hardware supplier of choice will be for the first "trial" of the new Palm-Linux device.

If Palm and Palmsource had never seperated and they released a device that was truely business friendly (would sync 100% to Outlook) then we wouldn't be having this friendly discussion.

There have been alot of comments about retraction, misrepresentation, misintrepreted, payola etc - but I still haven't seen a single "fact" from Access, only from Palmsource.

Was the press release a "test" balloon as I stated somewhere else? I'd bet somewhere in China - there is a guy sitting at a computer Googling to see how many positive or negative comments have been stated and by whom - and they are listening and will be deciding as a result?

P.S. T3Gunner - have you ever wondered why Palm hasn't yet produced a device that has a radio (phone) and wifi? But MS has been able to do it? Over a year ago - Palm promised to have an SDWifi card for the 650.....by end of the year or early January......nyet! I'm no software engineer but it might not be feasible. It was supposed to be part of cobalt? Maybe the hardware isn't compatible and maybe.....well I could go on. It didn't bode well for the current platform of devices.

If the Treo with Windows has a radio and wifi as surmised......

[cold.ghost]

OK. I've calmed down. This might be rambling and I apologize in advance.

By June of next year "WifI" will be the dial-up of wireless. Verizon already has EVDO for $60/mo, and other competition starting in January. Right now you need a "card;" in March laptops ship with EVDO built in. They are not going to include Bluetooth (security problem wrought, which is why Verizon defeated "other than Motorola" bonding), WiFi (slow) and EVDO. They'll pick one.

So Wifi is already moot. I said, a week after owning the 505 5 years ago - "Man alive, I wish Palm would make a PC." That may be the new "hardware." A Fujitsu LifeBook on steroids - with EVDO. Doesn't say much for the handheld "market," such as it is - but if you want spreadsheets on your belt and an organizer, and use the laptop for internet - then you're done. Palm obviously aren't interested in Bluetooth or WiFi, as they developed both too slowly to be any good. We're approaching the end of "WiFi as cutting edge," which is proably good since Palm "skipped it" altogether.

That doesn't mean they can't produce a handheld for everything OTHER than surfing, which is basically what we've HAD ALL THIS TIME ANYWAY. The TX and LifeDrive are sorry advances but they're here and that's that. What's "around the corner" is in complete limbo and frankly a lot of us are tired of waiting.

Here's my personal plan of action:

1. I'm actively seeking a proggie that reads spreadsheets (xls or open office) from a Card. DrBaer asked about something releated to this yesterday, and got me thinking.

2. Yesterday I loaded Ubuntu Linux. Split the harddrive, W2K on half, Ubuntu on the other - 1.5GB total install including almost everything I could want save Docs to Go conduit. Yes, it has Palm synch with it and open office 2.0.

I have summized that Linux is great, and can't figure out what the fuss is about trying it or switching. You tell people "I'm going to try Linux" and they look at you like you're wearing a tinfoil hat and just got off a space ship. It's a breeze, intuitive, and all I need to figure out is what the hell's a tarball and how do you install a program. I won't need many - and especially the 14 security apps and trojan hunters I need with Windows. If this is the way

/palm(source|inc\.|LLC|Ltd)/

(sorry, you almost have to write it as a regular expression these days - I wonder if their employees actually know where to show up in the morning) -

plan to proceed, and you can skin your device any way you want - that isn't a bad thing. My huge "boiling point" comes when

1. We're calling it the end 4 years early and the other shoe hasn't dropped
2. When I'm told "technology moves at the speed of business" (three little letters to refute that . . . . "GNU," which has better stuff than commercial business software)
3. We all lay down like lemmings and wait for it.

Tealpoint will manage if Palm OS switches to Sanskrit - they're collectively GOD. Other developers might spring up. Freeware might once again have a rebirth. Sure I'm miffed at the Palm "CEO" (still have to laugh at that) - but perhaps he's Nicholson at the Water Cooler in Cuckoo's Next "At least I tried, G.D. it - at least I did that much." We should give him til January, even if it's one more worthless, fruitless WAIT. He doesn't have much longer than that before he'll sell what's left to K-Tel Records and clear out his desk.

That's pretty much my slant, too. We can all try. I have yet to hear from the majority of developers I contacted over the weekend - if they're asleep I'll find 12 more. And 12 more after that. And then we'll investigate class action to get our money back for peripherals, hardware, software and broken promises over 5 years. I'm not giving up. Ever. Ever. Call me nuts - they did the same with Barnes Wallace in WWII - who said we could develop a "bouncer" to take out German bridges and dams hidden by mountains. Four failures. And then it bounced. And they came down.

Anybody with an injection mold can make "hardware." I'm rooting for the Japanese because 1) their stuff doesn't BREAK, and 2) Apple (would have been my first choice) seem to have the attitude of "own whatever they put on it and keep charging 'em." Don't try to put an i-tune on a Windows device, unless you get the freeware "code stripper." I don't have first hand experience - I don't own an IPod. Seems to me if Japan own Access and the "source" or the "force," they might as well make the light-sabres as well.

All we need is a belt-sized PDA capable of holding programs we use often, and even better - alter those programs to our specific needs. Linux would afford that, and it's stable as rock. I thnk "resets" would go away. Connecting to the internet is not going to a showstopper - I haven't seen ANYONE in the state of Califronia using a handheld with WiFi anyway. Laptops it is - with a Palm on their belt for "various organizational tasks." If Blackberry, Zodiac and various incarnations of Palm/Clie all "failed" at internet access - then those who really need it will go with the Windows Treo. So what? That leaves at least 85% of the population in "our camp," wanting a dependable organizer.

[soporific sarabande]

It is an emotional issue, in part because many of us, myself included, keep virtually all our personal data on one PDA or another; I happen to use a Tungsten E, which I sync with JPilot on my wholly Linux desktop machine. I will not under any circumstances voluntarily use a Microsoft product; I decided that in January 2002 and have kept my promise.

So I'm on the watch for an alternative when my Tungsten E bites the dust as it will someday. I find the current state of affairs beyond my poor ability to understand, as I have little business sense, and at age 65 no desire to acquire any (I have other things to do).

I'm very seriously considering going back to paper record keeping, and have found several good Web sites devoted to just that--featuring forums inhabited by highly intelligent people who finally got sick of the fickle software/hardware world. Some of them retain the use of PDA's but also use paper; others are paper-exclusive.

I do not want a converged device; I have never wanted a Swiss Army knife, and I don't want the electronic equivalent. OK, I'm particular about things. But that's how it is.

So unless a Linux- or other non-MS-based OS-operated PDA that is just a PDA (and not even wireless) comes along, and which is Linux-desktop-friendly, I will probably just say bye-bye to the PDA world when my Tungsten says bye-bye to me. Too bad, because I love using it. If nothing else, playing Solebon on it every night puts me to sleep.

[Florin Fantasticu]

I don't know what I'd do to get to sleep if I couldn't play Bejeweled2.

[ITS ME a.k.a Free10 gu]

Good man!

[migluciuke]

Before we all freak too much about the move over to Linux, I think it's important to note that the effect of many users is likely to be relatively minimal.

In general the term "Operating System" is a bit fuzzy these days, as the phrase is sometimes used to describe only low-level hardware and resource management software, but other times also incorporates a windowing system, application services, and a graphical user interface.

On handhelds, PalmOS and Windows Mobile includes both low-level and high-level aspects. When someone writes a PalmOS or Windows Mobile application, that app uses the graphical user interface and application routines of that OS, and thus gives not only portability between all devices running the OS but a consistent interface for end users.

Symbian, on the other hand, is lower level animal. It handles the memory, timing, and hardware management for a phone, but every phone manufacturer writes its own custom code layer on top of Symbian. Applications are coded to the phone manufacturer's layer. That's why it doesn't mean much to say one is "writing apps for Symbian OS" because the apps have to be written for each phone's custom layer, which can be widely different from manufacturer to manufacturer.

When PalmSource announced its move over to Linux, it's important to note that they're primarily talking about moving the underlying management layer (from an assumably custom system) over to Linux in order to provide better stability from buggy apps and make it easier for phone manufacturers to write drivers and adapt their hardware to PalmOS. For the most part, the layer that applications use or that customers see should not change significantly.

It's a bit like the move from Mac OS9 to OSX, but better. When Apple replaced their OS9 aged technology with a slick Mach kernel, they fixed all the memory management and stability issues while providing a somewhat-kludgy emulation system for older software. PalmOS-Linux should do something similar, but they don't need to kludge an emulation system because PalmOS apps today are already running emulated on all current devices.

A few years ago, when Palm made the move from Dragonball processors to ARM-based ones, they ported the operating system to ARM, but devised an emulation system (PACE) that ran Dragonball (68k) code seamlessly on the new devices. They (Tim?) did such a good job, that nobody notices today. Virtually all software on current devices (with the exception of HotSync and Blazer) run under PACE emulation.

If PalmSource does a decent job with PalmOS-Linux, then nobody will notice either. The only scary thing was with PalmOS-Cobalt, when they made a big push to get developers to write new applications (so called "Protein" apps) directly to the new OS instead of going through emulation, something with high costs, minimal benefits, and something almost nobody asked for. Hardware manufacturers didn't buy it, nor did most developers, which is why Garnet is still King.

Hopefully, this time they learned their lesson and will make sure all apps will continue to run, compile, and be fully expandable in the future strictly from within the emulation layer. If so, they'll get better stability and flexibility, yet I think they'll keep their existing fans, developers and customers too.

[bon apetite]

Converged devices outselling the rest.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=8162