RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian

07-09-2010, 09:08 PM

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

So is it fraud if someone lies about being married or says "I love you" if they don't.

Under that law, the first would probably be actionable, the second, probably not.

07-09-2010, 09:25 PM

Although conceding that the sex was consensual, district court judge Tzvi Segal concluded that the law had a duty to protect women from "smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price"

"If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have co-operated," Mrs Segal said as she delivered her verdict.

This judge sounds like the modern Israeli equivalent of a Jim Crow redneck from the 1950's. How typical is that? "Unbearable price?" What was the price? "Serious romantic relationship?" She was a pickup at a bar, is he fucking kidding?

Is there any chance at all that this charge would be made if the "races" were reversed?

Also, does this "rape by deception" thing apply to Jewish boys who tell girls they have Lamborginis or that they're in the Mossad? How about if a Jewish girl lies about not having a boyfriend? Is she a rapist?

This is completely fucked up. It's fucking Jim Crow, man. It's bullshit.

**Pedro** · 07-09-2010, 11:25 PM

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Ah, a man of integrity.
When people lie and are called and it, and other evince bigotry, don't call them on lying or bigotry, get upset with the guy who notices and points it out.
Obviously, the fact that many people on this board are bigoted against Israel and/or lie to support that narrative reflects very poorly on me.

Just a disinterested opinion but I can set my watch by how long it takes you to cry "liar" in any thread critical of anything Israeli. That doesn't lead me to believe you are entirely rational on the subject. I'm sure you'll disagree.

Also, since were on this page, I find your habit of characterizing every one of your opponents as drooling morons off-putting.

You're so smart.

Hey, thanks for noticing!

**Honesty** · 07-09-2010, 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by DSeid

\
Laudenum, your untruthful statement was stating that he was "jailed for being Palestinian"; that is untrue - he was jailed for fraudulently representing himself to get sex according to the same law that has jailed Jewish Israelis on the same charge.

This doesn't make sense to me. This assumes the Palestinian pretended to be Jewish to get sex with this specific girl - how do you know that? If I were a Palestinian that could "pass" as a Jew, I'd do it in a heartbeat - wouldn't you? I'm black and I *always* check my ethnicity as "white" whenever I asked on forms. Should I be fined or imprisoned too because I misrepresented myself? I've gone to the DMV and shouted down a state employee when she tried to check that I was "black" when I had infact put white. Until there are compulsory lab exams to determine ethnicity, *I am* what I say I am and there really shouldn't be an argument about it. My view, in this case, is that the State has no business inquiring about my ethnicity at all.

What is the litmus test to determine whether an individual is Palestinian or Jewish? Is free speech protected in Israel or not?

- Honesty

07-10-2010, 12:42 AM

Originally Posted by FinnAgain

Originally Posted by Maeglin

How much effort do people have to expend hammering dishonesty and prejudice elsewhere before they get to call you an asshole?

Idiots are free to call me an asshole for minding liars and bigots.
Of course, they're generally the actual assholes as they don't mind lying or bigotry, but do mind someone pointing it out.

And, of course your question is rather disingenuous. How about: at least ever, at all. Most of the folks whiniing about how bigots get called bigots or liars get called out for lying haven't posted, even once, ever, to challenge that shit since either it's on their "side" or they don't care about the facts but boy oh boy the accusations annoy them.

Disingenuous? Go piss up a rope.

There's a lot of factual inaccuracy floating around the SDMB. If only there were time to swoop in and correct all of it. I don't challenge most of the Israel shit because I don't even read it. This is your crusade, about which you are transparently fanatical. I have my own tables to wait here. I am more personally interested in other things, so god forbid, I have to let inaccuracies in one small corner of the SDMB go unchallenged.

You might have arrogated to yourself the role of calling bigots bigots and racists racist, but anyone else can call an asshole an asshole. People are more inclined to argue with you than call out shit beneath the radar because quite frankly, you piss people off. Even people on your side. Congratulations for rising above the noise.

**Villa** · 07-10-2010, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers

Actually, since the Israeli woman (almost certainly) has had military training and the Palestinian man (almost certainly) has not, I figure a fairer (or at least more entertaining) solution would be to Thunderdome it.

"No groin, no Krav Maga. Hello groin."

07-10-2010, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

This is an evasion of the question and the issue. "Yeah, but Muslims are eeeeevil, does not get Israel off the hook for its own Jim Crow practices.

This isn't Jim Crow, though. The law doesn't specify Palestinians, or even lying about being a Palestinian. It's about lying to get sex, period.

07-10-2010, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by villa

The thing is, though, under Pennsylvania law, that he had to force into her did not make it rape. That she didn't tell him to stop because she was terrified of being sent back to juvie meant it could not result in a rape conviction. If she was terrified because he held a gun to her head, then the conviction would have been upheld. That's the traditional legal view of rape by the way - that both force and absence of consent are required.

The problem with your view is that it leads to arguments, as we're seeing here, on what sorts of conduct constitute 'rape.'

Many years ago, I posted in response to a GQ thread titled Can I legally refuse to feed Rachel Leigh Cook unless she sleeps with me? that may be of interest to the present discussion.

Either we agree that "rape" refers to a specific crime with specific elements, with the further understanding that "rape under New Jersey law," "rape under Virginia law," and "rape under Israeli law," may not be identical crimes, or we accept this generic idea that rape means whatever the speaker wishes it to mean, which leads us to absurdities like "all married sex is rape," a paraphrase of Andrea Dworkin's articulated position in "Right Wing Women."

**PrettyVacant** · 07-10-2010, 03:30 AM

LOL Because you're worth it . . .

Love that moral certainty of empire.

07-10-2010, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Malthus

Are you contending that rape by fraud isn't a crime in America? Because I can assure you, it is in some states. See the (lengthy) article on this very topic I posted upthread.

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Sure, but none of the situations covered by that paper are even remotely analogous to this one.

First of all, the case described in the OP is highly unusual and controversial, so it's not surprising that exact precedent is not turning up.
I also linked to a legal article upthread which described a number of cases prosecuted under rape-by-fraud laws - one of which was an Israeli case involving a (presumably) Jewish man found guilty of nine counts of sexual assault and fraud involving women he seduced by claiming to be a rabbi who could cure them of, well, something. This example was dismissed by another poster as being completely different from the case in the OP, as it pertained to a Jewish male who falsely assumed a religious identity as opposed to the case in the OP, which involved a Muslim male who falsely assumed a religious identity, and...oops.

Nothing logical and factual must be allowed to interfere with the Israel-Evil-Apartheid-Jim Crow conclusion that some here are determined to reach.

Argue that the application of the law in the current case was unreasonable and unfair, criticize some rape by fraud laws as being open to abuse and a reasonable discussion can be had. Trying to shoehorn this case into one's petrified Good/Evil view of the Middle East is contemptible.

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