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Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

Yeah. Remember the company that brought you those shows initially as well. Now, instead of two hours, there's at least double that amount. And at least one hour of that is Chaotic reruns.

If you want to nitpick, yeah, and they ran out of episodes because they only showed 12 of the 13 for about 15 weeks. Compare that to Legion of Super Heroes premiered with a cycle of four episodes at the beginning of the season, another cycle of four episodes around late October, a small cycle of two episodes in mid-January, and the final cycle of three episodes in March. Because we still have the foolish 13-episode seasons on most domestically-made fare, American shows have a sad lifespan in this country. And when an episodic series like Spectacular Spider-Man airs in a row like they did, the season seems kind of short.

I completely agree with this comment and will add no more to it.

You know how much of Skunk Fu 4Kids owns?

NONE. They got broadcast rights to the new season because Cartoon Network surprisingly ordered another season AND a movie. New episodes means another broadcast venue.

You want to know why Tom and Jerry Tales ISN'T coming back on? It's not because the crew behind the series didn't want to make another season, because they did. 4Kids chose not to renew the series because it doesn't fit their public persona.

So, instead of Tom and Jerry Tales, stay tuned to Viva Pinata!

Yeah, but the Japanese saw the original first. The UK will probably end up airing Dragon Knight first about the beginning of the year.

YTV tentatively has it coming on around October or so. It is their property, you know.

Well, Teletoon premieres the series next week, and it still wouldn't surprise me if they at least preview the second season before C4K does if not premiere the first couple of episodes before it airs in the US.

Wolverine and the X-Men is airing in the US on Nicktoons Network beginning in March. YTV will premiere Wolverine and the X-Men in a couple of weeks. They're getting the series, which is ready, first, though Marvel had originally said the episodes wouldn't be ready until next year, which we know now is untrue.

And Shaggy and Scooby-Doo did better in the 9 AM timeslot.

So, instead of doing what any real businessman would do and renegotiate for a better contract, they actually chose to go to competitor with one extra e/i-filled hour instead? And they chose to fill that extra hour with reruns of Chaotic when they do?

Here's a concept. Why won't they just stop being subservient to a broadcast network and launch their own network? Are they so cheap not to launch a potentially marketable children's network or are they afraid they'll be exposed as a one-card-trick pony?

Well, games play a lot of roles in the type of programming 4Kids pick up. They picked up Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, Chaotic, Kirby, Sonic, Viva Pinata, DiGata, and Dinosaur King (the card game based on that property will launch 1Q 2009 with the rest of the merchandising). Properties that they didn't turn into game properties like One Piece, G.I. Joe, and Shaman King were given the heave-ho. The only reason TMNT is still big is because they get a huge cut of every merchandise thanks to their licensing arrangements.

Its lineup, I might remind you, is STILL programmed by 4Kids until the end of the season.

So, you're saying that 4Kids is basically abandoning its other block, at risk of ruining their own reputation and status, leaving behind the fans that still remain watching the block, and creating a negative number in their finances, just for the sake of eliminating them? That's . . . stupid.

If 4Kids didn't have the CW deal to fall back on, then they wouldn't be so destructive towards their Fox block. But, if the mass exodus of CW affiliates (led by many of the flagship Tribune-owned affiliates in New York, Chicago, DC, Los Angeles, Denver, Portland, St. Louis, and New Orleans which have or in the process of shedding the CW branding from their on-air personas) is enacted at the end of the season, there might not even be a CW at season's end.

Then what?

No network means no deal. No deal means no block on the CW. And 4Kids' loss on Fox could be another studio's gain. Right now, Cookie Jar, Taffy, and Nelvana, already looking to expand into broadcast television in the US because of February's upcoming digital transition, may have their eyes set on a potential Fox deal, because Fox still wants the audience.

But stranger things have happened. I bet 4Kids realizes something's wrong at The CW, they will grovel on their knees and try to renew their ties with Fox.

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

I don't think I've managed to watch a single show on CW all summer, since Spectacular Spider-Man had its finale

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

It's amazing how affliates treat cartoons, man. Nowadays I can understand, but back in the `90s, for example, it was kinda dumb. My local FOX decided not to air the line-up in favor of news. Why? I mean, most people watch the news at either 6pm and/or 11pm. So, what's the point of airing so much news? Especially when at the time, FOX Kids had Power Rangers and Animaniacs which were the two biggest kids shows. They could have been making so much ad money that instead went to an Indy Station.

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

Hasn't "cheaply-dubbed marketable children's entertainment" been a staple of KidsWB after they started to air 2 hours of Pokemon/Yu-Gi-Oh years ago?


Didn't Spectacular Spider-Man originally premiere in March?


As long as the cartoon is interesting, the nature of their origin doesn't matter.

Personally, I will wait to see how CW4Kids fairs once they get their own lineup in place with new episodes.



Up until 2003 Foxkids/FoxBox aired on the local Fox affliate before moving to the UPN affliate, conversely KidsWB had for a long time had been scheduled on sundays on an independent station up until 2004, before moving to the WB affliate and saturdays

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

It is true that CW has made some bad business decisions, but at the end of the day what matters is the shows. The reasons CW/Kids WB/4 Kids are doing bad is because most of their shows aren't interesting enough. Hence why it's getting beat by reruns of Hannah Montana. Let's face it, this is Saturday morning. It's not as if they are moving shows around (like the primetime people are doing with certain shows) and kids can't find it. The fact is that they can, but just don't watch it cause they see the ads and say, "looks stupid" and watch reruns of cable shows.



Yea, it's amazing how a dumb little network that began with silly primetime soaps is improving as a result of CW's mistakes. lol.



That's kind of true. The truth is that you NEVER air your best show at 8am. But, yea, 9am is not bad at all. I recall as a kid that most, if not all of us, were awake by 9am anyway.



And some air it on a completely different channel. That's what happened with me and FOX Kids back in the `90s. It aired on one of the Independent Stations. Then that station became a WB affilate in 1995 (with the launch of the network) and for TWO years I got FOX Kids AND Kids WB on the same exact channel. In other words, in my city these two line-ups weren't even going against each other. Then, after two years FOX Kids moved to another Independent Station for a year till moving to UPN affliate where it remained till the merger in 2006. Now, it airs on My Network TV.

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

I agree WB dosen't care about cartoons, ending a very long era. Goodbye:
Bugs Bunny and the Looney Tunes

Scooby-Doo

Yogi Bear

Flinstones

Jetsons

Batman, Superman (with the exception of Brave and the Bold)

Justice League

And so many others.

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

Okay, I concede that the ABC Kids has gained ground over the CW over the past year when in direct competition. So in that aspect I was wrong.

But it doesn't change the fact that as a whole, the CW4Kids' ratings have remained on par with the Kids' WB's a year ago. Overall the Kids' WB got 0.98 on average in the same weeks that the CW4Kids, in a transition phase with some obvious water-testing going on, got 0.88. A pretty neglible difference when considering the circumstances. So the CW4Kids' performance isn't really any worse on its own, though it is in comparison with one of its competitors anyway, ABC Kids.

Regardless, the real testing grounds will be the 2008-09 season, which unfortunately doesn't get into full swing until the midseason. 4Kids will be off to a slow start for sure, the test will be to see how their new programming for the block in the midseason will do.


And they undoubtedly won't receive the season until it's complete. So no, I'm sure they can't show four or five new episodes in the fall like you said.

Besides, the show has pretty strong continuity, so it would probably do better with continuous new episodes rather than having it broken up constantly.


The fact that none of them are WBA should be a hint that 4Kids won't have the rights to them come September, so they can't. Why else would they bring back Skunk Fu instead of continuing with the successful Tom & Jerry Tales?


If you want to get nitpicky, Dragon Knight is an American adaptation of Ryuki rather than a dub, so it's not quite what aired in Japan. RollBots will be premering at roughly the same time (February 09) and I can basically guarantee that Teletoon won't be showing Season 2 of Spectacular Spider-Man first. Teletoon schedules things really oddly, though, so they're hard to predict.

And what does Wolverine and the X-Men have to do with anything?


Chaotic did great in the 9:00 AM timeslot.


The Fox deal costs more for less timeslots, that's the difference. That's what Kahn has been kvetching about the entire time.

Besides, only two of the shows have a card game that actually plays a role in it (no, there really isn't a card game aspect in Dinosaur King, despite that being the kind of property it's based on). That's hardly a "myriad."


Because 4Kids is basically abandoning that competitor, which with its lineup will undoubtely take a huge hit this season, and within a year that competitor will be completely eliminated from the picture.

That and yeah, the people running the CW aren't all that smart.


Different strokes I guess.

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

I just deleted my whole entire response to your post, but here's the short version:

- We were comparing different ratings. I wasn't pitting ABC and CW against each other, I was looking at each block compared to their overall rating a year ago.

- Pok?mon does well at 9 AM on Cartoon Network.

- Kamen Rider Dragon Knight won't premiere in Japan first, since it's an English adaptation, not a dub.

- 4Kids' revenue was up this last quarter, they just had bigger losses from upgrading their Chaotic website and other stuff of the sort. The revenue from the Chaotic TCG doubled from $2.4 million to over $5 million from the first to second quarter, so it's pretty clear that consumers is not getting tired of card games. In fact, it's one of the businesses that has remained stable in spite of a weakening economy.

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

And there's so much wrong with your breakdown of the ratings, it's almost laughable. You wanted to play this game.

Let's play.

First of all, did you even compare the shows to the timeslots? ABC and The CW only competes against each other from 9 AM to Noon in the East. Here's the breakdown of the core numbers:

CW/ABC (6/23/07)
1.2/0.8 (CW)
1.1/1.1 (Even)
1.0/1.6 (ABC)
1.2/2.3 (ABC)
1.5/2.4 (ABC)
1.3/2.2 (ABC)
ABC wins 4-1-1.

CW/ABC (6/21/07)
1.4/0.5 (CW)
1.4/0.8 (CW)
1.4/1.0 (CW)
1.4/1.2 (CW)
0.9/1.3 (ABC)
0.9/1.3 (ABC)

The CW wins 4-2 in the first week of The CW4Kids, buoyed by the new Spectacular Spider-Man and the CW premieres of Chaotic and Fast Forward. GX's premiere, which was a new episode, was actually a disappointment, actually LOSING 2/3 of the audience from the same period last year. That's 66%. That's more than the 25%. And no, I'm not making up numbers.

CW/ABC (6/30/07)
1.2/0.5 (CW)
1.3/0.7 (CW)
1.0/1.1 (ABC)
1.1/1.4 (ABC)
1.4/1.3 (CW)
1.6/1.1 (CW)

CW 4-2. Look. No shows on CW under 1.0.

CW/ABC (6/28/08)
0.8/0.6 (CW)
0.8/0.7 (CW)
1.0/1.1 (CW)
1.0/1.0 (even)
0.7/1.0 (ABC)
0.8/1.1 (ABC)

CW barely squeaks by ABC 3-2-1 thanks to ABC's lackluster 9 AM block. ABC dominates two out of three hours they compete against each other. Look . . . four CW shows under 1.0. Plus, GX and The Batman lose 50% of the audience compared to the same audience a year ago and the 9 AM shows both lose 33% of their audience, i.e a third of the total audience compared to a year ago (here's the math: 2007's number for the 9 AM show is 1.2. That same number in 2008 is 0.8. The difference is 0.4 or 1/3 of the audience of 2007. That's 33% of the audience).

CW/ABC (7/7/07)
1.4/0.4 (CW)
1.2/0.8 (CW)
1.2/1.3 (ABC)
1.2/2.0 (ABC)
1.1/2.1 (ABC)
1.1/1.9 (ABC)

ABC 4-2

CW/ABC (7/5/08)

0.5/0.5 (EVEN)
0.6/0.8 (ABC)
0.8/0.9 (ABC)
0.8/0.9 (ABC)
0.4/1.1 (ABC)
0.4/1.6 (ABC)

ABC wins 5-0-1. ALL CW shows under 1.0. Ratings are even LOWER for them compared to a year ago (a repeat of Spectacular Spider-Man lost 50% of the audience than Johnny Test had in the same period while Chaotic lost well over 9/10 of a point or about 70% of the audience of Shaggy and Scooby from last year). That's So Raven's numbers are so low because the popularity of those reruns are waning, but both still beat what The CW aired in those timeslots (a new Spider-Man and Fast Forward).

CW/ABC (7/26/08)
1.2/0.4
1.2/0.8
1.3/0.9
1.6/1.0
1.1/1.4
1.4/1.2

An anomally as CW nearly sweeps (Hannah Montana beats GX). Plus, in some markets, ABC programming didn't come on until later or even Sunday because of British Open coverage.

CW/ABC (8/4/07)
1.1/0.4 (CW)
1.2/0.7 (CW)
1.3/1.0 (CW)
1.3/1.3 (even)
1.2/1.6 (ABC)
1.1/1.8 (ABC)

CW wins 3-2-1.

CW/ABC (8/2/08)
1.1/0.4 (CW)
1.3/0.7 (CW)
1.5/0.9 (CW)
1.5/0.8 (CW)
1.1/1.0 (CW)
1.1/1.2 (ABC)

CW Wins 5-1. Another rare abnormality with no excuses from me, though this was the final week of a somewhat regular block. Chaotic, Fast Forward, and GX lost a tenth of a point while Spider-Man gained two-tenths of a point. GX still pales in comparison to Xiaolin a year earlier, but only by a tenth of a point. Batman is still even with Johnny Test.

CW/ABC (8/11/07)
1.1/0.8 (CW)
1.1/1.4 (ABC)
1.4/1.5 (ABC)
1.3/1.8 (ABC)
1.3/2.1 (ABC)
1.2/2.6 (ABC)
ABC Wins 5-1

The first week of 4Kids' true face:
CW/ABC (8/9/08)
1.0/0.7 (CW)
1.0/1.0 (even)
0.9/1.2 (ABC)
1.0/1.6 (ABC)
0.8/1.6 (ABC)
0.9/1.4 (ABC)
ABC Wins 4-1-1. Again, three shows below 1.0. Fast Forward lost a third of its audience (33%) compared to a week ago while ratings for the slot is 15% different than a year ago.

Final score: CW does win 4-2, but ratings have dipped an average of 25-33% compared to a year ago on the network. The average ratings for the CW is still about a 1.1, but ABC's average rating is higher with a 1.3.

I think that ABC has a better edge than The CW, and while their ratings aren't big right now, they're fairly consistant with the same ratings a year ago.

Nope. Not misinformed. Some episodes ARE done right now, about three or four to be exact. The entire 13-episode season won't be ready until January, but it will launch in the spring. And then . . . well, let's just say there's already rumblings of a move to another network by this time next year.

And no, it's not Cartoon Network.

Yes. Humorous shows work in earlier timeslots. Action properties don't. Remember the Big Kids Go First campaign Kids' WB had many years ago? Ratings tumbled for their action properties, so they moved them back to their later timeslots by the end of that season.

In YOUR area, CW4Kids airs like that, but that's not apparent for the bulk of the country. Some are time-adjusted. Some air the block on Sundays. Some don't air the block at all.

Skunk Fu will be CN-exclusive by the winter (they're doing a movie exclusively for the channel next year), Spectacular Spider-Man will be history on CW4Kids by next summer, Will and Dewitt will be replaced by mid-season, and Magi-Nation is temporary filling a slot.

And none of them are owned by Warner Bros. Animation. They could have continued Tom and Jerry Tales and Legion of Super Heroes and they could have aired Brave and the Bold on C4K, but they won't, and they didn't.

Japan will disagree with you on Kamen Rider Dragon Knight, and Canada will disagree with you on Rollbots. If the cards play themselves right, Canada will also disagree with you on season two of Spectacular Spider-Man.

Canada's already getting the world premiere of Wolverine and the X-Men in a couple of weeks. You DID know that, right?

Did you perhaps think that 4Kids is losing money because kids aren't really thrilled with a myriad of card-game based series year after year? Kids aren't stupid you know. And for the record, 4Kids has the exact same kind of deal with Fox as they have with The CW. The difference is that instead of one sucker, two suckers are paying 4Kids (Time Warner and CBS).

Just How Bad is the CW4Kids?

Who makes all these bad decisions, at this point the whole damn network should just collapse and die with some semblance of dignity.