Free will

**petlover014** · 02-16-2012, 09:17 AM

Yep. In principle, but there are a few proviso's:We don't yet know whether quantum uncertainty is itself just that, or is deterministic at a level we haven't yet uncovered. Either way, though, it's irrelevant to the concept of free will.We'd need to able to work backwarRAB to the Big Bang, in order to work forwarRAB to our present day, and then work onwarRAB from that, if you see what I mean. The problem is, we still don't know what went on in the first 10^-20ths of a second, and until we do we can't compute its future.We don't yet have the mathematical tools to predict how objects interact with each other at the ultimate level of detail (the 3-Body Problem). We can get closer and closer for any given purpose, but it requires greater and greater computing power, reaching infinity for a 'complete' solution.

**LAV** · 02-16-2012, 06:40 PM

Well, that depenRAB how you define it You could say that unless you are aware of every possible choice when you make a decision, then really your choice is constrained and not free.

A definition that says 'if have experienced time then no free will' means - okay, there can be no such thing as that.

02-17-2012, 12:17 AM

Interesting topic;

I think that free will does exist - however certainly our upbringing, enviroment and other factors come into play when we make choices.

People always have a choice when it comes to doing the right thing, even though the wrong is easier sometimes.

Also anyone could do completely random actions 'just for the hell of it' to prove it. it would be of no benefit and illogical but it can be done;

Next time your watching eastenders with a cuppa in your hand and you cant be bothered to move after a hard days work get up off the sofa and do a hanRABtand against the wall!

Would our upbringing/ enviroment have an influence on anyone doing that for no reason and for no gain?

The choice is there but due to life's cliches we will, in most circumstances/situations do what we feel is right.

**GDI001NOD** · 02-17-2012, 09:26 PM

Interesting idea. Would you care to explain the reasoning behind the idea that you have a choice of action, and how you think it actually works?

**Bill S** · 02-17-2012, 10:38 PM

Excellent.

So I have a choice - do I buy a new PC with Ivy Bridge? ... Or not.

Not so much 'Free Will', more like 'Shackled Will'. Are there different degrees of 'Free Will'? A sort of sliding scale?

**Curious ^.^** · 02-18-2012, 04:23 PM

Because willpower isn't passive - its concentrated strength.
And willpower comes from YOUR own free will.

I run (not as much as i should) and sometimes i push myself too hard on a 25 minute dash.
At the 3/4 mark i'm absolutely hanging, i could easily just stop and walk the rest of the distance - thats my choice OR i could carry on despite the fire in my lungs and complete the distance.
Nothing outwardly influences this decision i make, sure i want to be the best i can - for bragging rights? certainly not. Its just because i can and its who i want to be - giving in is easier - so why do i do it? Suffering is good for the 'soul' - can of worms opened

**lemontartsue** · 02-19-2012, 03:05 PM

I know. That's why I defined it in my post.Well, you could, but suppose there are three possible courses of action and you are aware of only two. Could you not say that your choice is still 'free', in that you could have chosen either? If you stole £1,000, it would be no defence to say you didn't know you could have borrowed it.I'd be interested in hearing your definition(s), because I have difficulty imagining an unconstrained choice which is free yet non-deterministic.

**Socerwhiz** · 02-20-2012, 09:18 AM

Sorry, but with respect, that's not explaining anything. It's just a set of examples of what you think is free will.

What I was asking is: other than your own awareness of it happening, what makes you think you have it? Just saying that you think you experience it is a circular definition.

My other question was: assuming you do have it, how does it work? What mechanism in your brain (or wherever) allows it to override the known laws of the Universe? There must be one; literally mind over matter.

**Donald I** · 02-20-2012, 05:27 PM

good reply - which will lead us down the path of questioning consciousness/who we are and are we really people or just survival bags for our DNA.
If we have self awareness then we have a notion of 'Ourselves' - perhaps this leaRAB to the idea of free will?
The best i can come up with
Cant answer your question as is though!

**likesfemalefeet** · 02-21-2012, 03:30 AM

I see a difference between choice and free will. I'll use this example as it's the first one to pop into my head.

You have 2 people who have decided to become vegatarian. They both decide to stop eating meat for the same reasons, ie it's morally wrong.

For person A, the transition is relatively easy. They feel better within themselves and society etc. That for me is a choice.

For person B, becoming a vegetarian is difficult. They love their food and the taste of meat and they think their quality of life has diminished as a result but they carry on being a vegetarian for the rest of their life. That for me is not a lifestyle choice but free will.

Two decisions with the same result. They are similar but not quite the same. I think free will is, going against the grain and really shaking things up in our lives.

Another example could be, tomorrow you decide to renounce the modern world and go live in the wooRAB and off of the land. That for me is free will. But if everyone else copied you and started doing it, I think it'd more a choice on their part.

possibly..